Skullgirls

[dave auto]

Tim, thanks for correcting me where I was flat-out wrong, and Wood, thanks for your reasoned, measured response. You know your shit when it comes to fighting games and I respect your opinion. You've certainly got me on the fact that Konami has far more embarrassing skeletons in their closet And let me reiterate that we are in total agreement that a new fighting game IP, especially one with a mechanical foundation as impressive as Skullgirls', is a good thing for everyone. Nor do I doubt the tremendous effort and love that has gone into the game's production. But I think a lot of that love has come from a place in their hearts that I just don't share As you point out, the character designs are pastiches from various sources of inspiration. Pastiche can be a risky tool for an artist: at best, it engenders a special kinship between those that recognize and appreciate the subtle commentary on the source material, but at worst, it can come off as alienating or even derivative. I'm not saying that deliberate homage is always bad, or that I've never been guilty of indulging in it in my own work; hell, I do it all the time! But from where I'm standing, regardless of their intent, I think it's reading as derivative.

And I certainly can't deny the amount of care this team put into the game's mechanics. But I'd say that the game's anti-loop system is a very creative solution to a very technical problem. I think it's fair to say that Revenge Labs' goal with Skullgirls was to make a fighting game that addresses many of the problems they encountered in high-level tournament play. Though obviously not mutually exclusive, that is a very different starting point, creatively, from the goal of making an entertaining video game. This is not to say that every fighting game since Street Fighter II has been creatively bankrupt, far from it, but by way of example, there was no blueprint for SFII to follow. Its designers merely set out to make a competitive game so fun and exciting that people wouldn't stop dropping quarters into it. They followed their guts, balanced it as best as they could, and produced a game that was infinitely more complex than any other cabinet in the arcade, but easy for anyone to pick up and play.

By contrast, Skullgirls feels saddled with 20 years' worth of fighting game arcana, systems built upon systems, built upon counter-systems to correct for flaws in the systems of the generation of fighting games immediately preceding, ad infinitum. You may call it homage, but I call it a design philosophy that excludes more gamers than it includes. And this is not Revenge Labs' fault. Personally, I believe that the baggage of 20 years' worth of slow, painful evolution is the biggest problem facing fighting games today. I'm not here to offer a solution; I'm not a game designer, I don't have one. But I don't think Revenge Labs has one with Skullgirls. And before you mention what might be the best tutorial in any fighting game ever, that's not a cure; it's just an admittedly awesome band-aid

Thanks for having a fun argument with me though! I hope you understand that my criticisms of this game aren't meant to imply that "I think this game is shit and I think you're an idiot if you like it." I'm glad you like it! I wish I liked it more This is just me trying to reason out what could possibly stop me from having fun with a new 2D fighting game that plays a lot like some of my other favorites. I should love it and I totally don't and it's totally driving me a little nuts

EDIT: I've been calling them Revenge Labs, but my eyes are playing tricks on me. They are Reverge Labs.

[Ekkebus]

I think you're selling the Tutorial this game has way too short. Accessibility has been a problem for fighting games, 2D fighting games in particular since Super Street Fighter II Turbo. At the point that SSF2Turbo hit, you already had a huge number of people that had been playing Street Fighter for a few years and anyone stepping in to learn the game for the first time had to learn everything that everyone else had been working on since Street Fighter 2 along with all of the new shit they added for Turbo. Then from there things just kept getting more and more complex everywhere you turned: Parrying (SFIII), Tag systems (VS series), the ISM system (Alpha series), OTG combos (multiple) and all the nonsense that Guilty Gear brought to the table. All of these systems and additions basically assumed that you were already somewhat familiar with the language of fighting games. What makes the tutorial in Skullgirls so good isn't just that it explains the concepts behind the systems in Skullgirls, it's that it explains concepts behind systems in the ENTIRE GENRE. You could seriously take the lessons learned in the tutorial of this game and apply them in any 2D fighting game with positive results. It may not be the final solution for the genre's accessibility woes but it's a massive first step.

[Zeiram]

I really haven't spent much time with Skullgirls (Legend of Grimrock has taken up most of my little available time this week for gaming), but I wonder if it is just a case of bad first impressions. A couple things in the game seemed poor to me at first too, whether they actually were or not.

[dave auto]

Yeah, it was a really bad first impression, which is a shame, because as someone who avoided any pre-release coverage of this game, I was kinda hoping the demo would knock my socks off, which I think is the purpose of a demo. An underwhelming demo really does a disservice to the talent of the people behind this game. I thought they were just a bunch of tournament jockies, but it turns out they're mostly industry veterans, although by the looks of it, it does seem like this is the first game of this type that any of them have ever worked on. It's a hell of a freshman effort, even if it's not my cup of tea.

The limited portions of the tutorial let you use a few other characters, and I had a lot more fun with Parasoul than I did with Filia and Cerebella. I'm looking forward to spending time with some of the other characters before I decide to make a purchase, though. With such a small roster, I'd like to know just how many of these characters I actually enjoy playing as. Peacock looks like the kind of character I hate, with all her little toys, and if Double is the kind of character I think she is, well... I think that's just lazy. In any fighting game. Yes, I'm looking at you, Soul Calibur.

The art still really bothers me, though, and it's not just the fact that the character designs do nothing for me. I checked out some of Alex Ahad's other work, and he's a super-talented guy, but I think his style is poorly represented here. He cites Bruce Timm (Batman:TAS) as one of his major influences, and boy, the clean lines and deep, rich colors of his style would be a perfect match for the "dark deco" motif they're going for. But instead, the sketchy outlines and Photoshop-stock gradients just make this game look muddy to me.

[Wood]

I can definitely see your chagrin when it comes to the art style of the game, and I can't argue that at all. I think something akin to Batman: TAS would have been a great look. However, I think there's a lot of anime game art that's being used here. The art was more than likely rushed, but it still feels pretty damn creative. The final boss feels like I'm fighting a KOF/Old vs style boss, that's frustrating with some of the cast members. The story mode is pretty alright. No animated cut-scenes without voice-overs, but pretty entertaining.

To answer your questions about the characters: Yes, Peacock is annoying with just how much crap she can put on the screen. But she's just like Marvel vs Capcom 2's Cable. That is, if she hits you with a projectile, she can go right into super, but if you get in close, she doesn't have a lot of options at that range. Also, Double is NOT what you think she is. All of her normals are some of the best normals from the characters she steals them from. However, her specials are still unique to her. Parasoul doesn't shoot her gun as a projectile, but Double does. Filia doesn't have a slide, and Cerebella doesn't have a R. Mika butt slam, but Double does. Double is absolutely an answer to SF4's Seth, who blatantly steals moves from other characters. She does have some issues as she doesn't feel like she has any decent anti-air moves, she doesn't have a double jump or air dash, but her dash is just like Slayer's to a point. Just like Slayer, their dash is vulnerable at the beginning and end of it, but completely invulnerable during it.

I think you should take a look at some good fight videos of this game. http://www.twitch.tv/leveluplive/b/314807630 is a good video to watch.

[Ekkebus]

So this game has been out for over a year now, and only just now does the game feel like it's getting to the place it should have been a couple months after release. Thanks to Autumn Games ongoing legal trouble, Skullgirls almost died completely. But now, of course, there's been an overwhelmingly successful IndieGoGo campaign that has ensured a ton of new content is on the way, the PC version is coming soon and the Xbox version FINALLY got patched. There's been a ton of changes both in terms of game balance and interface. Like hey, there's a command list built into the menu like there should have been to start!

It's interesting going back to this game now after having become so much more invested in the characters in world thanks to the past six weeks of mysterious character voting. I just have such a better idea of what's going on in the world and it's fun to recognize all these characters that I didn't really take much note of before. Things are looking bright for Skullgirls. Really looking forward to the PC release. I read that the beta along with Squiggly should be hitting in the next month or so.